Revival of the Fittest

Christina Engela's picture
Its not that God isn't a God of love, patience, kindness etc... it's just that some people who claim to follow God aren't - and see fit to single others out - but not themselves.

While I have been a Christian and now consider myself an agnostic and spiritual, I differ personally in my views of the value of the bible as any form of authority as it has been shown to have been manipulated and edited to suit those who use it as an instrument of control. This is of course, a point which is actively disputed by those who happen to agree with points of view which are bolstered and encouraged by these manipulations, mistranslations and other errors in a document which many would use as a rule-book by which to live, run society, judge others, and even condemn people to death.

Let me make it clear in no uncertain terms that that document, while having value as a set of rough guidelines and inspirational verse, is not infallible, inerrant or even an authority.

This has become quite relevant in the discussion around the recent findings of a Methodist Church tribunal in South Africa, which has dismissed a gay minister for marrying her long time girlfriend. The Methodist church should be ashamed of its narrow mindedness and persecution of people who should be welcomed. Excuses do not cut it anymore.

"Amiel Joshua" - a detractor and critic of gay rights, wrote on the wall of the Facebook support group set up to support this minister:

"Look, you cant blame the church for following the rules as laid out in the bible, the bible is the final authority on how we lead our lives, thats what we believe as christians. The methodist church has given her a lot of leeway, more so than any other church denomination would have, in some of the churches I know of they wont appoint ministers who would marry gay couples let alone a gay minister.

Marriage is a between a man and women, from reading ecclescias story she knows that she ougth to have been celibit. I think shes trying to move the boundaries for her own gain and is short sighted. Look around you, the gradual lessening of standards has started endless problems, rampant crime starts with petty rule bending. We're called to be set a part, called to a higher standard of living. no we've not perfect, but we should fight our battles with Gods help and not just succumb to carnal instinct, its like premarital sex, self control with Gods help is needed."

It is because of such attitudes and people who push them that churches everywhere are empty and emptying.

It is because of such attitudes that gay people (and others) turn their backs on God. And I cannot blame them for doing so, although I wonder who is going to answer to this God for that? Us? Or those who lie and steal the light from those who need it most?

Marriage is a piece of paper, and an agreement between people who love each other, regardless of gender. How can a person's marriage be for any other gain than that of love and the formalization of their union. I see by your own statement here, how short-sighted you are. In fact, I find your underlying attitude in implying this, insulting and offensive.

Especially when half-wits and idiots start pointing fingers at crime and deterioration (and natural disasters) and blame it on "low morality" and us wanting to get married or to stop you from treating us as cattle.

"...the issue in the church was never orientation" (despite the fact that gay people were unwelcome in churches for decades) "but how that orientation plays out in lifestyle" (how you figure this one out only heaven knows, lol), "that is the issue."

Of course, people choosing to live heterosexual "lifestyles" are somehow sinless and those not are fit targets for the wrath of "God's perfect sinless people".

God came to save all, Jew, gentiles, murderers etc etc etc... including religious fundamentalists, Christians and even gay people. Don't forget to include all those pedophiles out there, who are "obviously gay" and also into bestiality and incest too, according to you. Oh and as a minor detail, where is incest listed as a biblical sin? Ah, gotcha there, haven't I?

Its not a them and us... (but yet we stand on the outside looking in at them) we all sin in different ways but the idea is that we all least attempt to live sinlessly and not brazenly live in contradiction to the way God would have us live. Yet some sin is somehow seen as worse than the sins of those who see themselves fit to judge others. Of course a select few of us know exactly what God wants, who he/she/it hates and what God says. And of course a select few of us choose who is welcome in Gods presence and who isn't, and what is sin and what isn't, and which sin is the flavor of the month in terms of who is welcome and who isn't.

It was fine for Ecclesia to be a pastor and be gay (and live together in technical sin out of wedlock) but "marriage" (I love those "quotation marks" - you know, like the ones I put around "Christian") was 1 step too far for the church - what astounding double standards.

I think people who are of this line of thought should stop placing themselves on a pedestal - you are no higher than the rest of us.

Have a read here: Steps to recovery from bible abuse. A response to the abusive use of the bible against gays and lesbians. A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality

And our friend did not read any of the material he was referred to - and continued to say:

"The bible is the authority of any church and cant be disregarded. Why believe only parts of it if its tainted, you need to accept it as a whole or not at all."

Yet people do the VERY SAME THING - picking and choosing parts of the same book to hit us with. WHY?

"Should bestiality and incest be legalised as well as someone is attracted to that form of gratification?" - How typical and what a weak pathetic argument. Ah, the old bestiality and incest bit they compare being gay to. There is NOTHING to compare bestiality and incest with being gay. How does being gay in any way legitimize bestiality and incest? How weak and typical to reduce the same instinct of seeking love and companionship which you as a straight man has, to mere "gratification".

Love the sinner but hate the sin, is that it? PLEASE, spare me.

People such as yourself are the reason others have little or no time for God - or those who claim his or her name - and kill others in it. It isn't God that hates us, but people who call themselves Christians and who won't deviate from their laws when they should be seen as mere guidelines and who read between the lines when it suits them.

"why do you want to be bound by a piece of paper, does that define your love? Why do you have to have this institution if its only that?" - Ditto, sweetie-pie - WHY DO YOU? If it is good enough for you, it is good enough for us.

I reject any laws which strip people of equality and dignity and turn them into objects of blame, derision and persecution.

The one law of God is love - and if you stop talking about love, you stop talking about God.

Let those bigoted and invariably straight Christians wonder now about why we do not want to be a part of their perfect world, on their terms. Let them ask why we "reject God" - when it is THEM we reject. Them and their hypocrisy, their hatred and their prejudice. It is time for change, it is time for renewal. It is time they opened their ears, eyes, hearts and minds. After what they have done - and after this betrayal by the Methodist Church of South Africa, they can wonder no more.

"Its not picking and choosing." Said Amiel Joshua.

Ok, so let's see - picking on gay people for how they are born, and for loving each other, but not attacking people who run fish shops for selling shellfish, tattoo parlors, and clothing stores for selling garments of mixed materials is NOT picking and choosing? Oops.

"You have to understand the context of each of the verses quoted and why they are used." He countered.

Oh, and you understand the ins and outs of ancient Greek and Hebrew, do you? Are you even aware of the thousands of translation errors in the modern bible today - and of how they effect the meaning of the texts you hold holy? Are you even aware of the origins of the modern church? And you want to claim that a faith founded on basic Christianity blended with Roman and Egyptian paganism, and a book modified to suit it is "inerrant"? Don't make me laugh. I suggest you read those articles I posted.

"Thats the reality it is gratification. It deviates from thr way it was meant, how God created it to be."

How the hell do YOU know how God meant anything to be? How can anyone? Is needing a life companion "gratification"? Would you seriously expect someone to spend their lives in isolation just because some idiot wrote something which has been mistranslated 4000 years ago?

Yes, your church may gladly accept gay people - and if they think as you seem to - just as long as they stop being gay and don't dare stop apologizing for how God made them. You can keep it.

God is not only found in churches.

"Its not our laws its Gods laws that we abide by." - Laws which were written and manipulated by people as it suits them. Well this doesn't suit us.

"You ahvent asnwered the question, you said "Marriage is a piece of paper, and an agreement between people who love each other, regardless of gender." then why is it so important to you if its only that?" He insisted.

Yes, I have - read it again.

Because we love as you do, we feel as you do, we need as you do - and yet you deny us the same rights and privileges? You haven't the right or the authority.

"No ones being stripped of anything." - Yet Ecclesia is being stripped of her office, her equality, her dignity and her income. Do you not even count her worthy of recognizing the injustice being done to her?

"Marriage is only applicable to people who believe in it, there are rules around it, put in place by God, its His institution. Its 1 man and 1 woman." - Did you also support Apartheid and the mixed marriage act using the same ridiculous "justification"? How is a heterosexist bigot any better than a racist? Are you one of those people who hides their closet homophobia behind boasts of having "plenty of gay friends"? You don't fool me.

It is people like you that ensured that I no longer call myself a Christian - and YOU personally who reinforces my determination never to do so again. Speak to your version of God about that.

And for your information, we are BORN GLBTI - which completely negates the term "lifestyle" as this discredits the implication of choice - if you wish to use such a term, kindly apply it where it fits best - to something such as religion, which implies CHOICE.

"They just wont be able to serve or lead not based on their orientation but their lifestyle choices." - If that is not discrimination and hypocrisy, what is?

What you cling to is the Old Testament - which Christ replaced. He is the New Covenant. If you wish to cling to arcane laws, then you should grow a beard and sew tassles onto the corners of your clothes as well as turn other people into outcasts.

Not being equal is being oppressed. Separate but equal isn't equal - but it sure is separate.

Instead of advocating oppression against other people as though you are perfect, blameless and without sin - you should count your blessings, fall on your knees and thank your God that you are so privileged to be able to sit in judgment of others and to oppress them.

Oppression is based upon the "morality" that through virtue of strength, or numbers that one group imposes it will upon others - and that "might makes right".

Well, Amiel - I will neither kneel, nor bow or scrape, nor apologize to any mortal being for who and what I am any longer.

Churches need to figure out that they are houses OF God - and that they are NOT GOD.

"Since when did God need a house by the way?" Somebody else asked. Since people needed a nice little box to put him in, separate from the rest of their lives.

Religion has always been a lucrative business which brokers wealth and power to the highest bidder. Never will you find a more mercenary institution than the Christian Church.

"No, being hetrosexual doesnt mean you're sinless, you can sin in other areas other than sexually." Said Amiel backpedaling again. But just being gay is automatically a sin? So when did you make a conscious choice to be hetero, Amiel?

I ask, because you seem to assume that we made some kind of choice to be gay and to live a "lifestyle" - a word you seem so fond of using.

"Exactly, if Hitler accepted Christ and asked for forgiveness for his atrocities he could have been saved. Anyone can be!!" - Okay, so being gay is comparable to being a genocidal maniac?

"No, its not a select few, many people have access to bibles to see for themselves what Gods standards are, there are also plenty of churches out there that can assist too." And the bible is completely free of error and is reliable in every way, shape and form? You have proof that there is a God and that it is THE actual God you claim is in any one version of the bible - and that this God said any of the things in it? No, I didn't think so.

"No, being gay doesnt mean living together with any one, why would you assume I suggest she live with someone??? certainly not a double standard." - Right so what does being gay mean, Amiel? Hopping from hole to hole, because come on, "we all know" gays "can't commit" and just "sleep around" is that it? Being gay is "all about sex" and not love, is that right? So what are you suggesting then - because you scoff at "marriage" for gay people (love those insulting quotation marks btw) and you don't suggest gay people live together either - should gay people just "stop being gay" or stop "living the gay lifestyle"? Careful dude - you're starting to sound just like those other "Christians" in the ACDP. Fascist wannabes. And they don't know the first thing about being gay either. You're in a hole, buddy - my advice is to stop digging.

So now this guy is in such a knot that he is denying things he has said or implied! And after such an argument I am left angry and disillusioned and unwilling to consider allowing anything religious or spiritual close to me. I believe most people are good, even deep down, even if I have to use a shovel to dig a little - even if some people can sometimes tempt me to pick up a shovel and actually put that theory to the test.

I apologize to all for my anger - I have been at this front line for so long I have seen all the arguments and tasted all the flavors of bigotry first hand. I respect the rights of all people, including the right to believe whatever they choose to - but I oppose the oppression of one by another and the use of personal beliefs as justification or authorization for such oppression.

It hurts me, as I am sure it hurts all of you when people hijack faith and God as weapons to serve their own selfish needs, and to attack and destroy others with.

I grow tired of turning the other cheek. I grow weary of playing nicely and treating bigots and haters with cotton padded gloves and pulling punches - when they go for us they go for the jugular and step over our bodies, to leave us bleeding on the ground.

When they attack our right to exist as human beings they come prepared, with every tooth and nail sharpened to a keen edge.

I grow tired of seeing us bleed for their hate and their hypocrisy and false piety. I grow tired of them using us as scapegoats to justify stripping freedoms and human rights and to pass conservative laws that place them in positions of privilege and power. I grow tired of our kind being expected to apologize for the way we were born, as though we had any choice in the matter. I am tired of being made to feel less human and less good than people who imagine they are somehow superior simply because of who they love or who they imagine themselves to be. I am sick and tired of people claiming that being gay is any more of a sin than being heterosexual. I am sick and tired of people using what we are as a slur, an insult and a curse in the name of the same God who made us all. I am through apologizing, I am through feeling guilty for something which was not my choice, nor my own work.

These people attack us out of the evil in their hearts and the ignorance in their minds. They attack us because we have no nation, state or country to uphold our nature, and unlike any other racial characteristic, we occur naturally in every other race, color, creed and nation and are not unique to a species of our own. We, unlike Americans, Whites, Christians or Jews, do not have a haven to which we can turn to say "look, they are murdering us - look, they are persecuting us!"

We, unlike any other group in the history of humanity, have no power, no military might, no defense whatever - aside from the goodwill, tolerance and open-mindedness of our fellow human beings - and that is precisely what these fundamentalist right wing monsters are actively taking to pieces and suppressing - an act of hatred, systemic isolation and gradual genocide.

We are truly hunted in this world. And those who know nature, know that the fittest survive, not the apathetic. Those who know history and military strategy, know that fortune favors the bold and those who are prepared - not the apathetic.

Which are you?

(Posted at Sour Grapes)

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tx for quoting me

BUT you make assumptions on my views.

The church as I said time and again welcomes ALL people irresepctve of orientation and race etc etc. i never said taht hetro people were sinless, all people are sinners who need forgiveness. the chruch isnt a building its the people no one boxing God up.

 <p>&nbsp;My pleasure -

 <p>&nbsp;My pleasure - however, I disagree. How can you even think of speaking on behalf of all churches? Is this in the same vein as one or two extremists speaking on behalf of "all" Christians?</p><p>I know of plenty of churches in my own city who do discriminate, where I as a transgender person had hands laid on me in order to "cure" me of my "sin" - and left in a flurry of embarrassment. Churches which proclaim to be "welcoming houses of God" - but where people like me are specifically listed in their policies and web-sites declaring us to be a "sinful aberration" which goes against God and against nature - and who refuse to marry me to a man, even though I have completed all my surgeries, have a female birth certificate and ID document on the grounds of their idiotic belief that "God made marriage for a 'natural man' and a 'natural woman'". (Oddly enough they wouldn't marry me to a woman either, because somehow I am man enough to be considered gay, but also woman enough to be considered "lesbian" - just not human enough to be considered equal.)</p><p>I lost count of how many churches and small extremist corner cult "churches" in my city support political and para-church groups that are fighting to take away my human and civil rights in this country by changing the Constitution. And there are many who are actively involved in destroying the lives of GLBTIQ people in countries like Uganda through their "church-planting" and "mission-work" and congratulating themselves for their murderous folly afterwards in the name of Christ.</p><p>There are only 2 truly welcoming churches in my city that I know of. Only 2. And in one of them, the pink community are welcome to attend if they "stop being gay" inside the walls of the church. I would never set foot there as that is not "welcoming". It is a slap in the face.</p><p>So please tell me again how welcome I am in all churches? Seriously, dude.</p>

because churches are made of

because churches are made of people they do go over board sometimes. they shouldnt have prayed for you unless you agreed to be prayed for. which city are you in? if jhb try "God first" or RUC.

as far as the sinful aberation, theres no way to sugar coat this, think i might have mentioned in our debate earlier, the problem isnt in your prefereence but in your practise. not your orientation but your action, as mariage is a man and a women same sex "marraige" doesnt go in the church especially for leadership and is a sin like any other. remember, we're here on earth to serve and fullfil Gods purpose but ultimately to live lives that will get us to heaven, lives of sexual purity whether we are hetro or homo.

on your dilema, im not sure what the position is on transgender issues. church shouldnt isolate you but welcome you, as far as marraige, im not sure. is there a more dominant gender?

I live in Port Elizabeth.

I live in Port Elizabeth.  And I know of only one church in this city that ever treated me with respect and consideration and equality, without prejudice. And that is St John's Methodist Church.

Your question about "which gender is dominant" in my being transgender indicates that such a perception should somehow play a role in how the church should treat me - regardless of how I feel about the matter. I feel as a woman, I live as a woman, I see myself as a woman - which is all that should matter - but that means nothing to them. Who gives anyone the right to judge me and to look down on me? Does your bible not say "judge ye not, lest ye be judged" and "Let those who are without sin, cast the first stone?"

It seems to me that this concept of "we are here to do God's will" is a little far off the mark when some people claim to be doing this will - and are instead actively making life unpleasant and even impossible  for others. Is it God's will to persecute others - especially for things which they cannot help and which mark others as human as naturally as the same things mark them? Is that not vanity and hypocrisy? Is it not also blasphemous?

And it is also somewhat ironic that while God does not judge me or condemn me for how I was born or made or created, his or her church and followers (or at least people claiming to be followers) do.

"the problem isnt in your prefereence but in your practise. not your orientation but your action" - what an interesting choice of words. So if you are a man, is loving a woman a "preference", or just natural to you? Did you just wake up one morning and "choose" to be heterosexual? Oddly enough the word "preference" infers that a gay person just "chose" to be gay - and might "choose" to be straight again, given the "right" circumstances *wink*. Did you choose to love a woman because it is your "preference"? And does it come any more natural to you to want to honor and love your partner of the opposite gender, in a formalized marriage - than it would to a gay person to do the same with the person they love?

In terms of the word "practice" I can only assume that you mean love - and where is love a sin? Where is love to be despised? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, they say, and love also. And hatred. I take it from whom it comes. Hatred, intolerance, injustice - these are not things that came from Christ. And if people speak of God without speaking of love and acceptance and inclusiveness, then it isn't God they are talking of... but the polar opposite.

"as mariage is a man and a women same sex "marraige" doesnt go in the church especially for leadership and is a sin like any other." - the entire marriage thing is open for debate. Even if you could somehow prove that God disapproves of same gender marriage, marriage does not belong to your faith alone - it is a LEGAL contract. Nobody can be legally married without it, not even hetero couples. Even hetero couples marrying in a church HAVE TO apply for a civil marriage license first, ergo it is unreasonable and illogical (and arrogant) for any church or religion to object to anyone getting married - or to mount legal and civil campaigns to deprive other people of civil equalities.

Marriage equality isn't a new thing, it's an old thing that was taken away by the Catholic church as it destroyed the original Christian church and grew and extended its grasping fingers around the throat of freedom and independent thought. Three thousand years BC, same gender marriage existed in cultures older than the Hebrew culture, and later in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Rome, the East.

As for the claim that being gay or trans is a "sin" in the Christian context, I think, examining the original texts, the contexts they were written in, and by whom and when - you will find that extremely difficult to prove, if not impossible.

Regardless, even if it were so, your bible claims that all sins are equal in the eyes of God - and yet it is gay, trans, and lesbian people (and sometimes even women) who are forbidden to hold positions in the church - but people who covet their neighbor's wives, liars, cheats, fornicators, gamblers, and blasphemers who use the love of God and Christ as a blood-soaked blunt instrument - are?

I await with bated breath a plausible explanation of why a loving God would create people to be trans or gay, only to condemn them for what they are, or expect them to spend their lives alone in misery and isolation and to be hated by his or her followers. That is not the act of the God I grew up to believe in - that is the act of a monster. Rather, I believe it isn't this God that persecutes or terrorizes us - but his or her followers.

Perhaps you need to take off your rose-tinted spectacles? Perhaps you should stop swallowing everything religious figures spoon-feed you and start thinking about these things with the brain you believe your god gave you.

I will leave you with a link to the following letter for you to mull over:


I've read those and refuted

I've read those and refuted them before, what are th emotivations of the authirs that try to disprove those verses? are they maybe trying to justify their own deviant lifestyles?

take the sodom verse around bringing them out to "know" them, why did lot offer his daughters if the crowd just wanted to meet the visitors??

the bible is clear on homosexual sin as we as other sexual sin.

if you want to know more about the bible:

"the bible is clear on

"the bible is clear on homosexual sin as we as other sexual sin." - You view flawed writings as "inerrant", as if there is such a thing. The articles I quoted which you will not accept show exactly why your bible has never even actually addressed the issue of same-gender love or marriage, and yet you CHOOSE to believe the worst of a god that you and others claim loves ALL people equally. I find that strangely ironic and hypocritical. 

The motive for interpreting and analyzing your scriptures this way is indeed in question - this would be LOVE, ACCEPTANCE, TOLERANCE, EQUALITY, COMPASSION, DECENCY, HUMANITY. Oddly enough, this is in keeping with the general impression of what your Christ taught. What, I wonder, could your motives be for rejecting the idea that god created us as equals and loves us as much as your "perfect sinless" heterosexual and privileged self? ;)

There is no point in arguing with biblical literalists - you don't have the capacity to feel for other people, or to think outside a mere book - you only see the world in black and white - and then try to reduce god to your own level.

People who argue religious rules v/s humanity, logic and love without knowing what they are talking about really piss me off. Do you ever stop to consider how it would be if you were in the other person's place? No, of course not - your neck would get stiff if you had to actually look up at the person sitting on a pedestal taking another swing at them with a holy book...

I already know all I need to know about your modern bible. It is fake and forged, edited and censored and not worth the paper it is printed on. As a matter of interest, I wonder if you could even satisfactorily answer a single question I challenged you to in your posts here? How about another one?

Do you know what lies the Roman Church (and by inheritance, the Protestant Church) are built on? Every single holy day is based precisely on earlier pagan festivals, including Christmas which is a copy of Io Saturnalia and Yule, Easter - an identical copy of Ostara, replete with bunnies, hot cross buns and eggs - and the historical records which show the modern church was founded by the Roman emperor Constantine who was a Sun-worshipper who blended all the ancient pagan faiths (cults of Ra, Mithras, Diana, etc) with early Christianity and made it into the bastardized religion it is today. How about the tiny detail that Christianity isn't even the only faith which features a "messiah" who dies and is raised from the dead after three days? Nor is it the only one that features a "trinity". Oh, you thought that was original and unique?

Not feeling so "puritan" now, are we?

u still dont get it! I didnt

u still dont get it! I didnt say that hetro people were sinless, i said we all were sinfull, i said that the bible condems al sexual sin!!!

i went through that site and gave you an example of how wron it is, by the way, whats the authors motive? are they trying tio justify their own deviant lifestyles?

I said " take the sodom verse around bringing them out to "know" them, why did lot offer his daughters if the crowd just wanted to meet the visitors??"

You have the wrong end of the stick, and keep jumping and screaming about minomers that only exisit in your mind!!

 No you didn't say hetero's

 No you didn't say hetero's were sinless - you just implied that gay people are more sinful.

For intents and purposes, the same thing.

There you go with slurs like  "deviant lifestyles" - which simply proves your prejudice - and your ignorance. Do you consider being straight a "lifestyle" - or do you feel you have always been straight and didn't really have a choice in the matter? 

Try answering one of my questions for once, instead of just evading them and making it all the more clear how you are painting yourself into a corner.

Why should you be concerned with who other people love or want to form relationships with? Is it in any way, shape or form any of YOUR business at all? Even if you don't like us, we're not going anywhere. Christians and Leviticans simply don't agree on anything in their own religion and some take it to the extremes of genocide, such as the raving lunatics in Uganda - but look, there are still gay and trans people there - and as long as there are human beings procreating, there always will be - because we are a part of human nature and there's nothing you can do about it.

Regardless of what you believe - what right does it give you in a diverse multi-cultural world to demand that everyone submit to your narrow views on life? 

Sodom? Because (according to some sources) the people of Sodom supposedly wanted to rape the visitors - which highlights the level of your ignorance since being gay is not about rape - while allowing your guests to be accosted or raped is most certainly worse in terms of the culture of ancient desert people, than offering your own children instead. 

As a matter of interest, did you know that male rape was considered a humiliating punishment for defeated armies in ancient times? And no, that wasn't being gay either, but it certainly answers some pertinent questions about the confusion surrounding biblical interpretations of homosexuality that linger today. 

Of course you're right - I am completely imagining your prejudice, willful ignorance and homophobic bias - and am here arguing with myself. ;)

And as usual, u still dont

And as usual, u still dont get it, i'll say it once again. we are all equally sinful, hitler, mugabe etc we're all in the same boat.

lifestyle refers to willingly living in sin or not. hetro christian people should wait to be married before sleeping together else its sin, unfortunately marriage doesnt apply to same sex couples, marriage is a man and a woman. this is the christian perspective.

ive said time and again, its not some ones orientation thats a sin but their actions. not their preference but their practice. for christians we aim to lead lives of sexual purity according to the bibles standards. a homosexual person who professes to follow christ should long to live a life of sexual purity as well by not engaging in sexual activity that undermines this.

its that simple! in any event, i sent you that link to the sermon on the bible, it was the first in a series. this sunday is homosexuality, its being done by a doctor who is couselor as well, im not in jhb this weekend but if you are go check out RUC, the evening service.(6:30pm)

no one is forced to submit to my "narrow views" of life unless they are christian, in that case they have chosen to belive a common view.

its quite a large download

its quite a large download but worth a listen,

the lady that spoke on sunday is also a doctor

Yes I do get it - everyone is

Yes I do get it - everyone is equal - but some are more equal than others. (Read George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984).

"no one is forced to submit to my "narrow views" of life unless they are christian, in that case they have chosen to belive a common view." - False - not even you Christians can agree on the scope or accuracy or relevance of everything you believe. 

"marriage is a man and a woman." - that's just your opinion. Marriage is a piece of paper that can be written out for anyone - hey - even the ID and DA union is being called a "marriage" - and I don't see you far rightists going raving loony about that. How come you aren't complaining that the union of two political parties (both headed by women) is being billed as a marriage? Aren't you being a little more than hypocritical? ;)

 The original marriage ceremony in use today is a virtual carbon copy of ancient Egyptian wedding ceremonies 6000 years ago - right down to the vows, and rings. And BION, same gender marriage is even older than your supposed "god-given" str8 marriage - and if you want to stand there and wave fingers at people because you don't agree with their morality, you should have something concrete to stand on, not the quagmire of mixed and blended ancient religions that was rehashed to make up the patch-work one you call yours.

Nothing that breaks people's humanity and basic human rights down is worth downloading or listening to. Especially when you ignored and rejected all the useful information I sent you on here.

God institued marriage with

God institued marriage with the first people He created. The download covers this history, there are verses from genesis, AND yes I did read your links and I did reply to some of them.

In any event, you know where to find the biblical view should you wish. its no just a piece of paper.


"God institued marriage with

"God institued marriage with the first people He created. " - your entire argument against human rights and equality can be derailed and sunk with two little words - PROVE IT.

Even the Hebrew religion (upon which Christianity is also based), is at the most only 4000 years old and is almost as splintered and divided as Christianity. At any rate, therefore none of any of your 'scriptures' can be older then 4000 years, drawing into serious doubt their authenticity and accuracy. 

Funny enough that the previous civilizations (such as Egypt, whose history dates back to before 6000 BCE) bear no recollection of this supposed heterosexist only institution.

""you know where to find the biblical view should you wish. its no just a piece of paper." - yes it is actually - and your entire argument against human rights and equality of other people to be allowed happiness and to be treated the same as yourself is based on nothing less than this piece of paper and the hearsay of people who are not alive to be confronted about it. 

You still have not answered any of my questions ;) Which to me says a lot. Especially about the proof showing how much has been omitted from your bible, changed, censored and mistranslated and also deliberately altered to reflect patriarchal bias and oppressive cultural attitudes at various periods of history against not only us - but women as well.

Your "biblical view" - and hence your whole religion is as open to interpretation as your hypocrisy in choosing to persecute people on who they love and choosing not to persecute people who eat prawns and get tattooed. 

if you'd listen to the audio

if you'd listen to the audio clip, you'd have all your answers.

it covers, God creating man and woman, marraige, tattoos, eating prawns etc.

yes you'd probably have to bite your toungue to get through it but you'd understand!

 "if you'd listen to the

 "if you'd listen to the audio clip, you'd have all your answers." - Perhaps that's why you seem to have all the answers, eh? ;)

See You haven't answered these questions because you cannot accept facts and truth which contradict everything you have been brainwashed into believing as "inerrant"  -nor can you think for yourself. You are limited to what has been written into a book about 1700 years ago by semi-nomadic tribesmen with little basic education, and certainly without any serious knowledge of the workings of anything outside the scope of people who had just stumbled out of the Bronze Age - and then hammered into you from birth.

The honest truth is, nobody has all the answers. Not me, not you, not a book written by people, nor the people who wrote a book based on hearsay and vivid imagination, nor the millions of lemmings who have read the book and bought into it and may even be willing to die (or kill other people) in the service of people who market and promote it as truth and law - when the only real truth is that they (and you) don't know the truth, anymore than I do.
You may call hate "love", and fool yourself into believing that acting out of hatred and intolerance towards people can be excused with "love" - but believe me, they are polar opposites.
I can't see how  Christianists (aka Leviticans) can stand to use something so thin and infirm as an authoritative reason to oppress other people and actively ruin their lives.
I can't see how you can sleep peacefully at night, using such flimsy material as a budgeon to beat other people over the heads with, or backing those that do - and twisting a philosophy of love into a misdirected policy of intolerance, injustice and hatred.

Think i might have already

Think i might have already posted the clip on the bibles authenticity. But here it is again:

In short, its not flimsy as you'd like to believe. we're not brainwashed, we hold our beliefs for good reason.

Think part of your block is not understanding the bible and why it should be accepted, the sin stuff follows naturally from that.

Leviticas (as you'd have founf in the audio clip) is not the only passage that speaks about homosexuality.

 ..... and as always your; background-attachment: scroll; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(235, 239, 242); line-height: 1.5; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-position: 50% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat repeat; ">

 ..... and as always your argument about "right or wrong" and "morality" flow from something you cannot prove, no matter what you claim.

So we can continue arguing backwards and forwards - and yet you still haven't produced any proof of anything to substantiate your waffling - and you STILL haven't answered any of my questions, in either of the threads you have badgered me on. You are so evasive, you should be in politics.

As anyone who knows a few things about languages and your "inerrant" bible (LMFAO) will tell you, the word "homosexual" never existed before 1948, and yet it magically appeared in bible versions printed after the fact - so how could ANY of your biblical texts refer to gay people? No my friend, they refer to specific instances - one example being Sodom (hostility to Gods messengers) and another being the "sex-changing" rituals used by priests of the Israelites enemies.

In either event, I couldn't give a toss what you think of who or what I am - YOU do not speak for God, nor does any book written, falsified and manipulated by people to say whatever they want it to. If God has an issue with me, then He, She or It can take it up with me - that isn't your job.

Live and let live - if you want others to treat you the way you want to be treated. Doesn't it say that somewhere in your book?


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